Curious about the latest innovations in hot water transmission? Join our Insights podcast as industry expert Garry Bouvet sheds light on the game-changing technology of PE-RT piping systems.

PE-RT pipes offer a durable, leak-free, and long-lasting solution for hot water transmission, with the added benefit to withstand higher temperatures up to 180 degrees. In this episode, we explore the core advantages of traditional high-density polyethylene and how PE-RT is transforming hot water transmission with improved performance and reliability.

Discover how this innovative technology is reshaping industries such as district energy, college campuses, mining, and oil and gas sectors. From improved efficiency to cost savings, PE-RT piping systems are a cutting-edge alternative to legacy piping systems.

Don’t miss out on this informative episode. Tune in to our Insights podcast to learn more about how PE-RT piping systems are revolutionizing hot water transmission.

Sean Moth 

Hello again. And welcome to our insights podcast here at ISCO, we talked fusion equipment with Curtis Durbin and Andy Niblett. Our last outing. Now we are here to talk about piping systems for transmission of heated liquids. With the well respected the infamous if not famous, Garry Bouvet. Garry, thank you so much for joining us,

Garry 

Sean, great to be here.

Sean Moth 

Let’s give everybody just a hint of a background with you. I know you have years of experience in the industry. But give us your title and give us just a little bit of background project

Garry 

manager here at ISCO. Currently, I’ve been in the HDPE world for about 30 years. I’ve got experience at McElroy manufacturing prior to my stint here at ISCO, which is now hit 26 years. And a lot of variety of roles from outside sales to rental equipment to I mean, you name it. I’ve been around with the with HDPE world. So yeah,

Sean Moth 

so when we look at the this, this from the Genesis so to speak, you know, there was a time where homes were sold, because they had hot and cold running water like events, it became a big deal to have hot water in the home. Let’s go back to what what the whatever the preferred means of transmitting the water when it was initially a new technology. It

Garry 

was you know, pipe sim metal pipes. Copper is still, you know, still prominent. He had led pipes way, way back in the day. Right, which we all know the difficulties with those right? Yep. But, you know, the things that were associated with when we’re talking about hot water for us are really not in the domestic, domestic side. Sure. We’re now seeing hot water used for heat generation inside buildings. And that’s really kind of where the sweet spot is for this product.

Sean Moth 

And that gets into the the carbon steel and maybe the ductile iron in terms of more industrial or district energy type application.

Garry 

Exactly. Steel has been had been the primary usage in the hot water for those what we call district energy applications.

Sean Moth 

I never want to turn these into a political podcast. But you almost have to understand why is the United States so stubborn about introducing these technologies that Europe had years ago because HDPE in general, and then and then hot water transmitting pipe with the PERT kind of came along later, we were just kind of late to the party. Is there a reason for that? I

Garry 

really think Sean, and it’s strictly comes down to this is the way we’ve done things. I don’t think it’s you know, we’re adverse to the the ideas of change and improvements, obviously, we drive vehicles, that, you know, where are we still doing horse and buggy? No, but I think that’s what we get caught up in this is what our system is we know how to deal with it, not wanting to it’s a big decision, you know, for an engineer or for a, a site superintendent to have to deal with, right? And if it goes wrong for whatever reason, right? It’s, it’s a mark against them. And I think that’s what really puts in the reservations that people have about changing I

Sean Moth 

kind of I almost liken it to investing like you don’t want to invest money in something that’s unproven but you might be putting $10,000 into Apple at the ground level. So sometimes it’s worth that risk. The builders now kind of seeking safer, more efficient, eco friendly, long lasting, leak free ways to convey hot water that don’t lean on those outdated legacy piping systems. Polyethylene have raised temperature resistance, we call it pert basically, we’ve had some additives added HDPE maybe you can talk us through that just a little bit to allow that jump from 140 to 180 degrees Yeah.

Garry 

And it’s your you hit it right on the head there is an additive in the HDPE the base product is still the latest current resin in the marketplace which is referenced as a 4710 and this part is 4710 resin with an additive now I’m not privy to know what the additive is I think it’s like the 11 herbs and spices you know the KFC you know has under share and nobody knows what that is. But you know the pipe has proven and working very well the resin is a resin supplied by Dow Chemical very you know prominent sure you know company in the in the in the chemical world for all types of products

Sean Moth 

and this is when we refer to the temperatures this is at a kind of a regulated 100 PSI pressure in general is that accurate? No

Garry 

it all you know the pressure is dictated by the pipe the thickness of DVR a pipe Yeah. So you know within those scope though you know the resin has its has its makeup And then the DR will actually will dictate the the working pressure. So that range of pressure, you know, again is a variable of the temperature. As that temperature increases, the rating drops decreases. It’s still a thermal plastic.

Sean Moth 

And like any safety guidance, I guess, there’s probably some leeway there from pressure and temperature regards, but 180 is the calculated restricted plateau, so to speak apart,

Garry 

right, that’s exactly where we kind of went to the sandbox that we want to stay in. Yeah, absolutely.

Sean Moth 

As we talked about applications, you said Stan sandbox that he it’s kind of a narrow window, but it’s it’s very useful, it’s very valuable. It’s that 140 to 180 degrees, you know, again, small but but a powerful window in terms of what the applications are talking me through some of those,

Garry 

how there’s, we’re seeing more and more applications. For this product, we first got working with the product, we were really focused on district energy, places that are moving getting away from steam, which is very expensive to, to to run to process, the equipment associated with it. Sure. You know, people are moving, finding better ways more efficient ways that carbon neutral that we hear so much about is, this is a great, great segue into that with the switching from steam to hot water. And that’s where we primarily see it, but now we’re seeing things like process waste on pulp and paper. We’re seeing biogas we’re seeing, you know, methane extraction rates or dairy farms, right? Those those microorganisms thrive as that temperature increases, their activity of breaking down those waste solids is more pronounced. And so now we’re seeing people looking at, and polyethylene is a great, you know, with all the other benefits that it brings. This part is a great product for that. Sure.

Sean Moth 

I also I understand maybe even with mining and oil and gas, there’s some opportunity there as well.

Garry 

Yep, oil and gas, you know, you’re extracting hot, hot fluids out of the ground at elevated temperatures, landfills, dealing with high temperature, liquids, or methane, coming out that at higher temperatures, again, all great places for the PE-RT.

Sean Moth 

And it feels like, as we talked about, I think it was right around 2003 or so that part came over to the US and in really consistent use that. I don’t want to say they’re yet to discovered applications, but it’s kind of like, every day, every month, every week or whatever people say you don’t want to I think it might be valuable to use it for this like you. You talked about the methane and the ranching and farming, it’s kind of like a light goes on with what we use it in landfill. And if there’s temperature rating, you know, maybe this will work here, do you feel like there’s kind of a forward progression of, of continued discoveries of uses so to speak,

Garry 

I do I think people you know, are looking for alternatives and looking for options. And if they can improve their system be more efficient, and save money, better for the environment, a very smaller carbon footprint. Yeah, everybody’s looking for that. All of these are, these are great math ways for the PERT, to to help. I

Sean Moth 

understand too, that there’s a pre installation process that can be utilized if need be, maybe explain to me a little bit what that is. But more importantly, why you would utilize that,

Garry 

well, in a lot of the district energy applications, they want to maintain that temperature from starting point A to and termination point B, the less temperature reduction you have, the less your system has to work to keep that temperature elevated. So preinstallation has been around on the on the metal pipes for decades. And it is also available on the HDPE on the part, and we’ll see it in certain areas, particularly, you know, above the Mason Dixon Line when the colder areas there. Colder ground temperatures, they want that temperature to be maintained. That’s that’s one method of of ensuring that with insulating the pipe, the other method they can do. There’s a an insulation that can be poured around the pipe after it’s laid in the ground. It’s like a powder foam that gets applied. So two different ways to achieve the same thing.

Sean Moth 

I want to go back to the term district energy because I know for me as a newcomer to this industry, it was a little confusing. It’s not necessarily clarification, but one of the more prominent district energy uses happens to be college campuses. And I’m not sure there’s a more sustainability aware entity than college campuses, which is something I know we all really appreciate. But But tell me about just in general the uses on campuses. because it seems like that’s something that’s really just getting a lot of momentum with pert, right.

Garry 

And the help was that a lot of them were already using HDPE for the chilled water. Sure, standard standard basic polyethylene. And when pert became available about seven, eight years ago, to them, it was it was an easy transition because they were already using chilled water. They were already using polyethylene and geothermal fields. So they had some acceptance of it and some work with it. So it was easier for that acceptance in into the hot water side of things and you know, one of the biggest Texas a&m I mean that that’s all they put in HDPE for chilled and and pert for the for the hot water. Massive footprints on the campus. It says it’s a campus of over 60,000 students. I mean, it’s a it’s a small city, you know, it’s a small city. Yeah,

Sean Moth 

no question about it. When we talk about installation, talking all the same things, but fusion electrofusion fittings up to 24 inches, mechanical fusion methods, there’s just there’s not a lot of differences between pardon and standard HDPE when it comes to installation, fusion and fittings, correct? Yeah,

Garry 

there isn’t, I mean, we we do that the fittings can be manufactured. Now, you know, some differences are there is a limitation on how thick this pipe can be produced. Because the resin variation limits, you know, the thickness of HDPE, that it can they can be produced. So we may have some fittings occasionally, that we run into that have to be overlapped something that we don’t normally deal with on the standard HDPE side. But as far as joining and assembling the system to exactly the same that they’ve been doing in standard polyethylene for years,

Sean Moth 

I’m assuming there’s a there’s a standard range of pipe size that’s used, but what is the range in terms of at the high end? Well,

Garry 

again, it’s really more based, the limitation is really the thickness. Sean, we have recently supplied pipe up boards of 42 inch 42 inch Dr. 21. Okay, being around that two inch wall thickness is really the defining factor for

Sean Moth 

that. Interesting. And as we mentioned, fittings, I guess, molded fittings from two to eight inches and then you start to get a tenant tendencies and Paller that’s gets into more fabrication,

Garry 

everything becomes fabricated elbows or mitered sections of the pipe. Same with the T’s, you know, your flange adapters are still there, all the all the necessary components for

Sean Moth 

but in terms of equipment and training, if you confuse HDPE, you confuse the same exact procedure. As far as benefits. I know they’ve got the gray stripe on the part that allows you to distinguish, you know, blue for water, green for sewer that and it’s gray, the stripes that are in put on the manufacturing process, it seems obvious, we feel like we need to point out the obvious, but the benefits of PIR are the same benefits that we have with HDPE. And in terms of those benefits, flexibility, lightweight, easy to transport installation, what’s the most crucial for part in terms of that hot water transmission? I

Garry 

think it really comes down to being leak free. I mean, I think in all systems, right? If we can eliminate leaks, that’s a major headache for any of the utility folks having to to maintain their system mean, they want to put it in and forget about it and spend their time doing something else. So to me, that is the biggest benefit of polyethylene in general. The second one in the particularly in this hot water is the corrosion resistance, right? That’s steel in any metal pipes. That is a natural occurrence that is going to happen when you have right you can’t eliminate it. It’s it’s going to occur. We’re talking things like tuberculate Ocean, we’re talking about external surface corrosion, right? You get condensation on metal pipes, and eventually, especially if you’ve got them insulated, all of that condensation is sitting on that, on that metal pipe ventually is going to eat away over time, and to percolation building up or your flows continually get reduced. You just can’t avoid it with metal pipes. Those are the two big ones that I think polyethylene brings.

Sean Moth 

And I would imagine the non toxicity obviously for drinking water and that is kind of a no brainer. Yeah, it

Garry 

has got to have that right. Yeah.

Sean Moth 

How about the the installation life I have to assume that that’s another one because a lot of these legacy piping systems that have been installed, you run into the tube regulation, the corrosion, the leaking, repairing is great, but is instead of band aids, you know, you’d kind of like to get into solutions. And I imagine that’s where pitfalls in

Garry 

right polyethylene, you know, standard polyethylene has 100 year design life, we know that. Now, elevated temperatures, obviously, with thermal plastics are going to have a negative impact on life expectancy, right? That just that just happens. Right now pert stands at a 50 year design life, that may change over time, just like polyethylene used to be a 50 year design life. Now it’s 100, I think I think pert will probably end up being in that in that same realm. And there’s always improvements and changes in resin, quality and makeup that always impact these life cycle characteristics. I

Sean Moth 

probably should have pointed this out earlier, but if you’re madly googling pardon, and struggling is the polyethylene of brace temperature resistance, capital P, capital V dash, capital R capital T, in terms of finding that. And know there’s another factor with part versus legacy material right now. And that is some supply chain frustration. In terms of some of those other materials? What kind of an advantage is that? And how is that influencing contractors, engineers, builders,

Garry 

it’s definitely had an impact. In our world, we’ve, you know, we’ve seen projects that were specified with a whole different material that we may not even have known about, have come to us looking for an option because of that lead time that you referenced, being extended so long that they just can’t, that can’t wait. And we’ve been able to make that flip because we can get them materials in a in a very timely fashion that can keep their project on track.

Sean Moth 

Let’s say you are someone who oversees utilities on campus, you’re hearing this podcast, you’re thinking, well, I’ve got a leak in this area, we’ve got some problems in this area, we do need to maybe make a move, how impactful is an overhaul or installing part or HDPE to a system in terms of its relation to the problems and the frustrations that it’s going to alleviate?

Garry 

I mean, there, there’s always challenges, right? No problem, and no two projects are ever, you know, you’ve you’re typically dealing with a lot of existing utilities, if you’re particularly if you’re looking at a campus, if it’s a new installation, obviously much easier new space, you’ve laid the trench and you put the pipe in and, and be done with it. But when you’re replacing a system there, there’s a lot of involved. I mean, we’ve had everything, you know, from certain animals that, you know, found that there was something there, we had trees with tree roots that had extended in and those couldn’t be damaged and removed. So the pipe, suddenly the whole pipe layout that you think was straight has to pass to make this significant curve around around that obstruction. So all of those things come into play. But there is a lot of flexibility. And I mean, that literally who is right, yeah, with with the perp with the product that can be done.

Sean Moth 

And I would imagine, even though it probably seems really intimidating to jump into something like that, like we talked before, and an investment, there are enough examples like Texas a&m, that it’s easy to go talk to somebody like that and say, what’s your experience, Ben? Because I know ISCO in particular, puts their reputation on the line says, Hey, feel free, let’s we’ll help you contact them and and find out how beneficial it is. Absolutely.

Garry 

And you know, people like Ron Jones or Texas a&m, great proponents of, of HDPE in general. And, you know, he’s, he’s a straight shooter, he’s going to tell you exactly what he thinks and, and he’s been fantastic. We’ve done that on a couple of occasions of have brought potential clients to visit with him and get his take what things worked, what things would he do different all and have all proven to be very, very beneficial.

Sean Moth 

We, we kind of touched on a lot of those advantages of HDPE. But of course, the website can give you more details on the pressure resistant, the easy to transport install, lightweight, the flexibility which we just mentioned, as you look into your your crystal ball, which I know you’re so good at. I’m assuming that Scientifically speaking, as we look at the electrofusion field in the highlands Supercell now allowing us to do this battery operated fusion, that may be some new additives, some new resins, some new processes might lead to 180 being nudged up to 190 200 to 10. D Do you foresee that?

Garry 

I do, Sean, I think you know, people are always looking to, you know, push or kneel they sometimes it just takes additional testing, right. different abilities to do that. But I do we’ve seen that evolve on standard HDPE over the more than 30 years that I’ve been involved with polyethylene. We’ve seen that that change at increased pressures, without any changing anything in the Type dimension, where, you know, we’ve seen the extra 100 years that I talked about, we went from 50 to 100, I think the same thing will happen in part and people are looking for constant improvements,

Sean Moth 

I’m guessing that you maybe you didn’t really see happening when you first got into this industry, maybe that was something that was going to be well, that’s beneficial.

Garry 

Never thought never thought about. We know, you know, thermal plastics, I’m not a scientist at any stretch. But, you know, when you take thermal plastics, and you add heat, it can change the physical characteristics. So, it it made sense that, you know, pipe would be susceptible to, to higher temperatures. But yeah, being able to even get to 180. And a pressure application was was, was quite a big step. I thought, yeah,

Sean Moth 

no question. Any other advances you foresee or maybe anticipate or even hope for?

Garry 

I, you know, it never ceases to amaze me, where where things go to and what we’re doing. But you know, I think the polyethylene, I think we’ll see continued to changes in pressure capacity on polyethylene pipe, there’s a huge safety factor now associated with the pipe. So we it is much more robust than even what we rate it for. Yeah. And I think those those kinds of things will change as more and more people continue to use it in their systems. There’ll be looking for other avenues. And that’ll that’ll force other manufacturers of the materials to to define new and better ways.

Sean Moth 

Competition does a lot of great things.

Sure does.

Sean Moth 

Garry, we can’t thank you enough for your time and your expertise. I know that your time is valuable. And we certainly thank you for joining us, Sean, thanks. As always a pleasure being with you. But fantastic. If you still have questions about part you can visit our website is go dash pipe.com. And you can also contact us on that same website on the contact page, look out for our blog, post our insights webinars coming up. You can register on the website as well for that webinar and it will be housed and live there. Just like the podcast so if you can’t be there live, when it happens on Thursday, then you can certainly go back and take a peek at it but hopefully we’ve been able to give you some more information. We certainly appreciate you joining us. My name is Sean moth. Look forward to talking to you next time on our insights podcast.